1:30pm, June 12, 2003.  Christine, George, Viola, and Gretchen were in the chatroom.

<After greeting, the group started the discussion on The Winter's Tale.>

George said:

Okay.  So where were we last time in Ray's class?

Christine said:

I am interested in the "situation" of Hermione's death.

Christine said:

and reborn

George said:

"situation", could you explain, Christine?

Viola said:

We discussed the unsex in the play.

Christine said:

I am wondering whether she has really died before.

Christine said:

it's too shocking of her coming to life at the end

George said:

I don't think she is really "dead" in the play..but only to hide hersefl from Leontes..

Viola said:

It's not so clear in the play. But we know that the news of her death is declared by Paulina

        Celine joined the discussion.

Christine said:

so I think it could be a trick

Viola said:

A trick by Paulina and Hermione

Christine said:

Yes, I suppose so , Viola

Celine said:

What kind of trick?

Christine said:

Hermione's death

George said:

Hermione's "fake death" is only to increase the guilt feeling of Leontes, and at the same time hope that Leontes could change after the sudden death of his son and queen..

Celine said:

Oh! I see. It's hard to justify the resurrection scene of Hermione.

George said:

however, it's not clear at the of the play that whether Leontes does learn from his mis-behavior..

Celine said:

Does he change?

Christine said:

yes, but if she is really dead at the beginning..

Viola said:

So Hermione's "death" is females' trick to punish Leontes.

Celine said:

I agree.

Celine said:

But, female subjectivity is not fully restored in this play.

George said:

So, here we come to the issue of the male and female identity in this play..

Christine said:

why does she have to punish him for such a long time?

George said:

I agree with you, Celine. And could you explain more?

Christine said:

Yes, Celine?

Viola said:

Or females want to force Leontes to find the small princess??

George said:

But it seems that Leotes does not even try to find Perdita..

Christine said:

did Leotes?

George said:

He only stays in his palace and laments...

Christine said:

yes

Viola said:

yes...but how to explain to oracle from Apollo

George said:

I think the oracle could be seen one part of the language function in this play..

Christine said:

kind of authority?

Viola said:

what language function?

George said:

In this play, the ones who are able to use the language are able to control, or to have power..

Viola said:

the absolute authority. maybe

George said:

and as I have mentioned in class, the female characters in this play are through language to go beyond the boundary between male and female..

George said:

Take Paulina as the example..

Christine said:

She really goes far beyond

Viola said:

Paulina's sharp speech

George said:

Thus, it is interesting to see how Leontes (or most of the male characters) faces the ones who are able to use the language..

Christine said:

I think her relationship with Leotes is quite ambiguous as well

Viola said:

Well, she can ask Leontes not to remarry. It's her power of language.

<switch to a new window/chatroom>

Celine said:

So, where are we now?

Christine said:

What's the problem?

Viola said:

Pauline's language power

George said:

We've been talking about the language in the play..

Gretchen said:

power of language and the sexual politics

Viola said:

Oh~~~It's Paulina

Christine said:

thanks

Celine said:

Something I have done in my report, right?

George said:

Ye

Celine said:

I decide to do the power of language in my final paper.

George said:

On The Winter's Tale?

Celine said:

Yes.

George said:

Oh..Could you talk about it a little bit?

George said:

On what's your argument and how are you going to do it?

Celine said:

I really think that Paulina is a master of language, but she is finally silenced.

Viola said:

can you explain how women use language

George said:

What does her silence mean?

Celine said:

Not only Paulina, I think everyone except Leontes is silent.

Christine said:

when?

George said:

at the end of the play I think..

Viola said:

but she talks with Hermione

Celine said:

Can Leontes in some way represents the absolute authority that silences those who wants to cross the line of hierarchy.

George said:

I agree with you, Celine.

Celine said:

Thanks.

George said:

But how are you going to explain Leontes' change (though he may not) in the play..

Viola said:

Well~~~maybe not Hermione but all people to show the "status" of Hermione.

George said:

What do you mean Viola?

Celine said:

I think Leontes's final speech not only silences his wife, but also isolates Polixenes.

George said:

Huumm..and?

Viola said:

Paulina's influence of her language is also manifested in her performance to show Hermione's "new birth."

Celine said:

Yes, I think her power of persuation is quite impressive.

Christine said:

her language is quite decorative

Celine said:

For example, she persuades Leontes not to remarry, she gives the example of Great Alexander.

Viola said:

I think Leontes wants to make all things in His Order, and he tries to be the only focus

George said:

and How does Leontes achieve his purpose?

Celine said:

As I said, he can be the absolute authority.

Celine said:

He uses the male power the society grants him as a father, a king, a man, finally a god.

Christine said:

Paulina is establishing her own authority via language as well

George said:

If the language is the "weapon" for female to go beyond the boundary, how does male respond to female

George said:

to be specific, how does male use their power?

Celine said:

Deplorably, women still have to be submissive.

Christine said:

Kind of power battlefield in language between male and female

Celine said:

Leontes can tyrannize his wife and his daughter just because he is a king, no matter how his behavior is unreasonable.

George said:

To use Leontes as example, male uses violent to stop female's "misbehavior".

Celine said:

Yes.

Christine said:

The shepherd father figure shows the submissive female role also

George said:

Back to our early discussion on the oracle from Apollo..

Viola said:

There's one thing I think strange.  Leontes seems to live in his own world. He overbearingly regards what he thinks and says is right.

Christine said:

when he demand his daughter to feast the guest

George said:

The oracle is part of the language, the language from the divinity.  Nevertheless, Leontes does not accept the result that the oracle reveals..

Celine said:

Leontes is ambitious to challenge the oracle from Apollo.

Christine said:

yet failed?

George said:

What makes him depressed is not the revelation of the oracle, but his son's death..

Celine said:

Because he subconsciously replaces the role of god.

Celine said:

Yes, I agree with George.

Viola said:

It's a challenge against the oracle. If Leontes accepts the oracle and declares that he's wrong, Leontes will lose his authority

George said:

Comparing to his son's death, Hermione's death has less impact on him..

Christine said:

you bet, Viola

Celine said:

His son's death is more overwhelming than the revelation of the oracle.

George said:

Still Hermione's "fake" death is to enforce the power of the language in the oracle..

Christine said:

any example? Celine?

Christine said:

yes Oracle

George said:

The oracle thus here can be seen as the authority or the power from the divinity..and also a demostration of the power of language..

Celine said:

The divine power that human being cannot challenge, right?

George said:

Thus, language in the play is not the weapon for female, but seems to a overwhelming power to dominate the characters' fate..

George said:

Yup, Celine, I think in the play the idea of "fatalism" is somehow a hidden issue .

Celine said:

Yes, I totally agree.

Viola said:

it sounds interesting.....fatalism

Celine said:

But, in my report I give up the hidden issue of fatalism since I want to work on the female discourse. But, it's interesting.

Christine said:

fatalism

Celine said:

Leontes's behavior in some way dominates the other characters' fates.

Christine said:

and the oracle dominates Leontes's fate

Celine said:

Yes, like a chain.

George said:

Huumm... Let's talk about the other characters..

George said:

How do you feel about Autochylus..

Viola said:

Do you think time in the play show some of fatalism? Seasons go round from winter to fall, from disorder to order. In the end , all things a

Viola said:

the oracle dominates all things

George said:

a minor character, but somehow very important..

Celine said:

Autochylus also possesses his power of language.

George said:

Yes.  He is the very few male characters who is able to dominate the language.

Celine said:

His lies always deceive the clown.

Celine said:

How do you think of the ballads he sings to entertain the guests in the feast?  Any function or implication?

George said:

But it's interesting to see how this male characters "utilize" the language comparing to the female characters..

Christine said:

"what a fool Honesty is!" --Aut.

George said:

For female, using language will result to be considered as violating the male hierarchy, but a male imposter is the one who use the language to make this play a "comedy".

Christine said:

He uses lies as his weapon

Viola said:

I agree with Christine

Celine said:

George, can you say more?  A comic relief?

George said:

I think the language issue in the play is not a simply a way of expression.

Christine said:

his lies happen to help Leontes regain his daughter

George said:

and it is a binary to the violent used by Leontes..

Viola said:

He uses language to make him be a member of a social group he's talking to

Celine said:

Can we say that his language shows another hidden issue of what's behind the appearance? Reality vs. Appearance.

Christine said:

and let Camlio back to Sicilia, thus a comedy

Viola said:

And of course his goal-- to earn money.

George said:

Through violence, Leontes wants to maintain his authority. However, at the end of the play, he learns that it is through language that he can achieve his purpose more smoothly..

Christine said:

Yap, Viola

George said:

Thus, language itself is a symbol of power, and in a male-dominated society, male is allowed to use the language to "hurt" the others without being punished (take Autochylus as an example)..

George said:

but for female who uses the language will be seen as a violation and to deprive the male power..

Celine said:

And women will be punished or eventually silenced because they abuse language, right?

Christine said:

under the patriarchal discourse, yes George

Viola said:

So Leontes's tone is not apparently arbitrary.

George said:

The final remark made by Leontes and the silence of the female characters shows that Leontes's learning of using the language to silence the female and to put them into the place they should be..

Christine said:

It appears that Paulina got her "punishment" from Leontes, for he silence her by marriage

Celine said:

Women are considered to be obedient and silent to obey the laws in the male-dominated society.

Viola said:

yes

George said:

Yup..

Christine said:

According to Leontes

Gretchen said:

I found a question online that suits the central theme of our course. Share it with you---

"Think of this as two tales of two related families. How do they relate to each other? Why should the tale of Perdita's love for Florizel be paralleled to the tale of Leontes' abuse of his wife?"

George said:

I think the question that Gretchen put is an interesting one..

Celine said:

Gretchen is nice to open a good issue.

Viola said:

yes the family of Polixenes

Celine said:

Because we cannot be limited to only the language of The Winter's Tale.

George said:

That's true..

Celine said:

Although I'll work on the language in my report.

Viola said:

the father-son, king-heir relationship and marriage

Celine said:

Good, Viola.

George said:

Huumm..Obviously everyone is thinking...

George said:

Alright.  Let's take a look on the two families first..

Celine said:

Ok.

George said:

It's very unusual to have a "complete" family appear in Shakespeare's play..

Viola said:

thinking~~~~~

George said:

and in Leontes

Christine said:

I think there's differences between Leontes and Florizel

Celine said:

Yes, mothers are always absent and silent.

George said:

we have a perfect family--father, mother, and the son..

Christine said:

Florizel ignores authority presenting by his father and insists on his love

Celine said:

Yes.

Viola said:

We don't know Polixenes's wife

George said:

So somehow Polixenes' wife is absent in the play.

Celine said:

Yes, he seems to be isolated in this play, especially at the end. He is silent.

George said:

Polixenes' relation to his son is quite similar to the family we see in Two Gentlemen of Verona.

Christine said:

which pair?

George said:

Valentino and his father..

Viola said:

the father's authority to force his son to obey, or the some will lose the "right" of an heir.

Christine said:

father in disguise?

George said:

the threat between the father and the son still exist in this play...that to the father, the son is not only the role of heir, but at the same time a competitor to his authority..

Celine said:

Yup!

Celine said:

Since Florizel challenges his father authority.

George said:

yes, that's the point..

Viola said:

I see!!

Celine said:

From my succession wipe me, father, I am heir to my affection. (IV, iv, 480)

Celine said:

He denies his father.

Christine said:

and holds his love

Christine said:

be true to his feeling

George said:

Viola said:

He is true to his "natural" feeling, not the artificial one, as Perdita argues with Polixenes and Camillo.

Celine said:

Can you explain, George.

Christine said:

yes?

George said:

The symbol of mirror mentioned by Leontes can be the explanation.

Celine said:

Yes, how about the relationship between Polixenes and Florizel?

Celine said:

Since they don't have too much inter-reaction.

Christine said:

Leontes refuses to face the copying of his son's appearance to him and insists to separate

George said:

When Florizel first time meets Leontes, Leontes mentions that Florizel is a "mirror" of the young Polyxenes..

Christine said:

So it echoes to Leontes's own mirror images before

George said:

and these two pairs of father and son in fact share the similar part in identification to each other..

Celine said:

Where? Can you tell me which scene? It seems that I ignore or miss that part.

George said:

Humm..I don't have the book with me now, sorry.

George said:

But I think it is in the act 4 or 5...

Celine said:

tell me next time, or tomorrow, ok?

George said:

sure.

Viola said:

5.1

Celine said:

Thanks, Viola.

George said:

The king needs the son to be heir, as the secure of his throne, and to emphasize the identical part between himself and the prince is emphasize the stability of the throne.

Viola said:

line 125

Christine said:

In page 1620, Mamillius mentions his mirroring to Leontes

Celine said:

You guys are nice.

George said:

And for the prince to emphasize his identical parts to the king, is also to secure his place as a heir.

Celine said:

Also to secure his right to marry Perdita since she becomes a princess.

George said:

But I think the identification in Polyxenes's family is rather different from Leontes'

George said:

For Florizel intends to break from his father..

Celine said:

Yes.

Viola said:

He gives up his duty to his father

Christine said:

I kind of like Florizel

Celine said:

Because he has his own subjectivity not to submit, right?

Christine said:

ya~ and the declaration of " the heir to my affection"

George said:

yes.. it is ironic that while he is claiming his own subjectivity, he is losing another one..

Christine said:

The one he less cares

Viola said:

I think Florizel is going to protect his authority

George said:

I wouldn't say that.  Or, he won't fly to Leonte to find his acknowledgement.

Christine said:

Thanks for reminding, George

George said:

No problem..

Celine said:

Don't you think that Florixel's insistence on marrying Perdita underlines another hidden issue of social rank.

Viola said:

what? the fluid of social hierarchy

Celine said:

The old shepherd and the clown are elevated to be gentlemen at the end.

George said:

but it is because that Perdita is found out as the real princess at the end..

George said:

and the reason Polyxenes rejects Florizel's marriage is Perdita

Celine said:

Yes, and it's because that Perdita is found out to be a princess, Florizel is married to Perdita.

George said:

that Perdita belongs to a lower rank.

Christine said:

old shepherd to gentlemen, a reflection to Renaissance England of the fluid of class

Viola said:

One of the reasons is that Florizel does not want to tell his father about this.

Celine said:

Yes, marriage is still based on the social rank, not love in some case.

        Christine left.

Celine said:

Florizel's mariage to Perdita is to reunite the two families, in some sense.

George said:

I agree with you, Celine.

Viola said:

It seems a marriage to make sure their brotherhood of the two countries.

Celine said:

Or reconciliation between Leontes and Polixenes.

George said:

But as we have discussed in class--is their reconcilation stable?

George said:

or is that a real reconciliation?

Celine said:

Of course not. Reality vs. Appearance.---I consider to be another issue of this play.

Viola said:

to pretend the peace as that in their lamb childhood before

Celine said:

Viola, do you mean that their childhood friendship is unstable and unreliable, too?

George said:

It's almost two hours, and I think this is our last issue to be discussed..

Viola said:

yes...

Gretchen said:

Here is another question that fits your earlier discussion regarding the social rank--

What is the purpose of 1,1? What do we learn from these noblemen about their lords' relationship? About courtly manners versus real behavior? Compare the scene to 5,2. What happens to people when they believe themselves to be members of the court or the upper class?

just for you to ponder on...

George said:

Let's finish this one, and ...

Celine said:

Thanks, Gretchen. Another good issue.

Celine said:

George, shall we end now, and go on our discussion next time?

George said:

I'm okay.  How about Viola?

Viola said:

We can continue the issue next time

George said:

and Christine...well, I think she might not appear.

Celine said:

Ok, it seems we come an agreement.

Gretchen said:

Celine said:

It's good.

George said:

Okay...so that's it for this afternoon.  Thanks you people joining the discussion, and thank you Gretchen for accompanying us through the discussion..

Gretchen said:

My pleasure.

Celine said:

Yes, thank you guys, bye.

Gretchen said:

See you!

George said:

bye...

Viola said:

I enjoy the time. Thanks you guys. See you tomorrow.

End of discussion.  3:40pm.