Group Discussion--Carol, Chris, Jessica, and Marc.

June 12, 2003

Jessica said:

Carol said:

Well...childhood....

Marc said:

Or Leontes and Poliexnes's childhood experience?

Carol said:

Right, you are on the target, Marc!

Jessica said:

Yes, Leontes and Polixenes, good point!

Jessica said:

I think Leontes is jealous because he is the one who loves Polixenes!

Carol said:

can you explain more?

Jessica said:

because they are "twinned lamb" that means, they are "rooted" together physically or mentally..

Jessica said:

they mirror each other.

Carol said:

but can "mirror" equals to homosexual?

Marc said:

who makes their "innocence" bound broken?

Carol said:

it sounds more like Narcissus...

Carol said:

women did so they say

Marc said:

who makes their "innocence" bound broken?  Polixenes?

Jessica said:

Polixenes is the one who can't reject temptation.

Carol said:

so he betrays homosexual bound?

Marc said:

the ambiguous line appears at what Polixenes says about on my sacred lady..

Chris said:

wait, did you say Polixenes is the one the blame? I'm not quite sure what you mean Polixenes can't reject temptation.

Jessica said:

Lenotes says " two lads that thought there was no more behind/ But such a day tomorrow as today, and to be boy eternal" key word--boy eternal, that means Leontes' tries to reject sexual desire.

Marc said:

temptations have since then been born to's, for in those unfledged days was my wife a girl..

Chris said:

both Leontes and Polixenes left their childhood relation because of "stronger blood" is operating, which mean sexual desire. And it seems both of them can't reject temptation since they both marry.

Marc said:

there's a distinction between a girl and a wife here.

Carol said:

do you mean "girl" sounds more mutual like "boy"?

Jessica said:

but their memories of childhood are different, for Leontes

Chris said:

besides, I don't trust Leontes' words. He is the one whose jealousy ruins his own family. it seems it's Leontes himself can't control this strong blood.

Jessica said:

both Leontes and Polixenes left their childhood relation because of "stronger blood" is operating, which mean sexual desire--that is Polixenes's view, not Leontes, I think they have different view of childhood.

Chris said:

He distrust Polixenes in the first stand. He is not the one whom he's saying himself being so dear to their brotherhood relationship.

Carol said:

yeah we got most of the sayings from Polixenes' side....

Marc said:

Don't you think the point is how Leontes interprets the way Hermione persuades Polixenes to stay?

Carol said:

I don't think Hermione's way is sexual...she is demonstrating a confidence....

Jessica said:

well, that's why Leontes is jealous because Polixenes pays more attention on Hermione.

Carol said:

it's Leontes that distorts her words...

Marc said:

Hermione uses the implied language to have Polixenes stay by confirming the results to her husband. and her immediate and confirmative responses arouse Leon's suspicion.

Chris said:

Leontes says, "We are together, brother, than you can put us on" in line 15. But I don't suggest that Leontes is angry about Polixenes paying attention; rather he is angry that Hermione pays too much attention to Polixenes.

Carol said:

Jessica you are absolutely right!

Jessica said:

thanks for back-up, carol!

Marc said:

in the conversation between Polixenes and herm, the implied temptation is revealed by the arbitrary and legitimate husband and wife relationship...

Carol said:

I think Leontes is angry for both reasons: (1 his wife's demonstration of power through language (2 she seems to persuade too hard about Polixenes' stay

Marc said:

that's what I indicates the distinction between the socially distinctive difference between a girl and a wife.

Chris said:

yea, and I'm not quite sure the emotion of homosexual is the cause of his jealousy. It's the emotion toward women that causes the jealousy.

Carol said:

Marc can you explain more...I still don't get your point...what about the difference between wives and girls?

Jessica said:

Don't forget the renaissance drama is full of homosexuality, Chris. " Male-bonding relationship"

Carol said:

I think there's indeed a kind of subtle implication of homo/male bond between Leontes and Polixenes....since they seem to reflect and love each other when they are boys....

Marc said:

this social context allures Pertida and Paulina remains silent consent after Hermione's speech.

Carol said:

but of course Leontes is jealous because of his wife's act....

Jessica said:

a man needs to confirm his identity through others, both man and woman.

Carol said:

good point, Jessica! and the confirmation from both sides should be different...

Jessica said:

yeah

Chris said:

Good. But we can't totally base on the words told by characters, can we? Please give some example of the homosexuality (concretely) to support the "homosexuality" operating.

Jessica said:

When Polixenes "turns his back to Leontes" ( I mean Polixenes cannot reject women's temptation, Leontes seeks to find another mirror in his son.

Jessica said:

the meaning of words is ambivalent, we can have different interpretation, but in my point of view, let us be " boy eternal" is sort of evidence.

Marc said:

and Leontes wants to restore his youth....

Chris said:

yet, I can interpret that it's because Her "turns her back" and be occupied by Polixenes so that Leontes feels offended.

Jessica said:

yes, you can, Chris. I feel that Leontes' word is sort of misogyny, which makes me think of homosexuality.

Chris said:

yea, it is quite ambiguous . . . . .

Marc said:

god, I think only evidence can speak here

Carol said:

but again here the causes for jealousy and anxiety can be complex...

Jessica said:

but the evidence in text is always ambiguous...

Marc said:

and those emotional complex always needs to trace back into human psychology.

Carol said:

you can also say Leontes is driven crazy by the hunger for power and control....over women and over Polixenes....

Chris said:

I think that Leon explains his anger when Paulina asks him to free Hermione. It's like that he can't endure adultery.

Jessica said:

human psychology--which is still a puzzle nowadays.

Marc said:

but one thing I have to agree with jess is L is an absolute misogynist!

Carol said:

you can also say Leontes is driven crazy by the hunger for power and control....over women and over Polixenes...yes, Carol, patriarchy

Marc said:

especially those female derogatory terms on the newly-born baby.

Carol said:

so the motivations here are ambiguous indeed!

Chris said:

Not to consider whether or not he loves Hermione so much that causes jealousy, it's obvious that he can't endure his queen is unfaithful--a typical kind who always asserts his authority and wouldn't let go if someone betray him.

Jessica said:

actually I found that in so far the texts we have read, including the last play for this semester, it is interesting that women are trouble-maker but also problem-saver.

Carol said:

how about the TOUGH Paulina? How about her interactions with other male characters in this play?

Carol said:

women rules

Carol said:

ha ha so Shakespeare is a feminist in the soul

Marc said:

Paulina is a problematic female role before act three because her tough behavior makes me associate with male witch

Jessica said:

in what ways?

Carol said:

what makes me really surprise is that how come the male characters act so tolerantly towards the sharp Paulina????

Marc said:

remember the scene when Pauilna holds the baby in Leontes's sight?

Jessica said:

they are not tolerant, they are not able to rule her.

Carol said:

ha yeah....but still....Leontes has the power to execute her in fact.....is it true that the power of language is so overwhelming?

Jessica said:

I think Leontes not execute Paulina is because he cares how other view his misbehavior. ( That is my possible answer )

Marc said:

or we can interpret L is also afraid of wife.

Jessica said:

afraid of wife?

Carol said:

so it's like what Paulina says is reasonable and just in both morality, law and feelings so Leontes becomes weak and evil?

Marc said:

yea...because L always wants A to shut P's mouth by threatening to hang A, not P.

Jessica said:

mmm..

Marc said:

if that's the case, A claims that then all men will be hanged.

Marc said:

Leontes in one way hates women yet in another way is afraid of women..

Carol said:

right Marc that's what I'm curious about as well!!!!!!!!!!

Marc said:

yea...because Leontes always wants Antigonus to shut Paulina's mouth by threatening to hang Antigonus, not Paulina.

that is a kind of public punishment, like in Taming of the Shrew, a husband who is unable to rule his wife will be punished by the community.

Jessica said:

So the undertone here is to remind the audience of "taming the wife"

Marc said:

but..Antigonus utters the truth that no husbands can live because they cannot tame their wives.

Carol said:

but why Antigonus says that then all other men will be hung? it sounds like men in this city mostly have shrew wives!

Marc said:

so, Leontes cannot do anything to women....in a way he's impotent toward conquering women.

Marc said:

But Hermione is not a shrewd one!

Carol said:

ha, right, the purposely arming of power comes from the deep anxiety of impotency!!!!!

Jessica said:

yes, I think if we put this idea into a historical context, it will make sense. As I know, at that time, man is afraid of woman's eloquence..

Chris said:

so, if it's the case . . . .it is also the cause why Leontes acts so furiously toward Hermione and imprison her?

Carol said:

Hermione is the queen, so the identity is more complex!

Marc said:

but Hermione is not a shrewd one!

But she is more eloquent than men, right?

Marc said:

Hermione does master the forceful language.

Chris said:

both Paulina and Hermione master in language

Marc said:

that's why Perdita is shown so differently compared to other common girls.

Carol said:

like mother like daughter

Chris said:

mum . . . . . . . . . then maybe it's Leontes's "sub-consciousness" that cause his jealousy? the sub- consciousness that he couldn't stand a powerful woman . . .

Jessica said:

Do you think Perdita is eloquent too?

Marc said:

the inheritance from Hermione makes Perdita noble, virtuous, and also possess a queen-like temperament.

Chris said:

then, he is also jealous of women's speaking ability?

Jessica said:

men are jealous of everything

Marc said:

Paulina does have an eloquent language when she argues over the flowers with the disguised Polixenes.

Chris said:

oh, "the men" in the "text" are.

Marc said:

the uneducated Polixenes can firmly make sure that nature is above art.

do you want to say more about this point??

Jessica said:

Marc said:

as for Polixenes' "amending the nature," Perdita holds the opposite views for the artificiality cannot manifest life itself..

Marc said:

which echoes the last resurrection..

Marc said:

is life imitating art or art imitating life?

Carol said:

good point Marc!!

Marc said:

by the way, Perdita also gives the disguised Polixenes tow flowers which have a deep meaning!....do you guys remember?

Jessica said:

but at the end, the resurrection is a kind of art rather than nature, right?

Chris said:

Marc, I will suggest that both happen.

Carol said:

it's the interference of the supernatural power...

Marc said:

so that 's life has its dominance over artificiality...like how Polixenes submits himself to the forbidden marriage between his son and Perdita at first.

Marc said:

also the FLOWERS mean A LOT!

Marc said:

floral and Perdita!

Marc said:

the flowers can endure during the winter

Carol said:

ha we're approaching the theme

Marc said:

do you guys know what the two flowers are Perdita gives to Polixenes?

the flowers can endure during the winter

I think that is" plum blossom" the symbol of Taiwan.